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	<title>Comments on: Optimistic CO2 Sci-Fi</title>
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	<link>http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/</link>
	<description>fiction by paolo bacigalupi</description>
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		<title>By: gregg</title>
		<link>http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/comment-page-1/#comment-93910</link>
		<dc:creator>gregg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 05:53:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/#comment-93910</guid>
		<description>In Brave New World Revisited (40 years after BNW), Huxley pointed out that as population increases, rules, regulations and laws increase. But we know we can&#039;t regulate massive population gains indefinitely. It&#039;s been said that the problem is not that we have too many people; we have too few people who control too many resources and processes. 
I write about elite, top-caste humans controlling and suppressing the masses--including GMH (genetically modified humans), and some activists attempts to upset the balance. 
Climate change? Here&#039;s an optimistic reframe: What if global warming works to prevent the return of another Ice Age? What if it makes some areas of the earth more fertile? Coconuts in Oregon. The Earth has been covered in ice from pole to pole three times in its life. Once for up to 40 million years. Snowball Earth. Total sterilization of all life but seeds. But mostly it&#039;s been a tropical world, with no ice even at the poles. How bad can global warming be? I imagine a future society that is thankful for the ancients (us), who warmed up the world and prevented ice two miles thick from moving out from the poles and covering 2/3 of North America, most of Europe, northern areas of Asia, turning India into cool temperate lands... And similar ice coverage in the Southern Hemisphere. Now that would be a serious sterilization of vast areas of the Earth. Talk about catastrophe! 
Maybe we&#039;re unconsciously terraforming for a warmer, more fertile world. The big issue would be changes in coast lines and the swallowing up of islands, thus relocations and migrations and extinctions of some peoples--and turf battles. Otherwise humans adapt. 
Pollution? Food for new organ adaptions, the first crude attempts of which are our current cancers. Don&#039;t steal this idea, it&#039;s been done by Octavia Butler in Xenogenesis. The first organisms were anaerobic, and one of their toxic discharges was oxygen. They poisoned themselves back from some niches, and aerobic organisms used that waste as food to fill the niches. We might do the same with dioxin, BPA, gly-phosphate (Roundup) and all the rest. 
Just thinking outside the media box to find some optimism. Who says global warming is a problem? It&#039;s a hot wind that doesn&#039;t blow somebody some good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Brave New World Revisited (40 years after BNW), Huxley pointed out that as population increases, rules, regulations and laws increase. But we know we can&#8217;t regulate massive population gains indefinitely. It&#8217;s been said that the problem is not that we have too many people; we have too few people who control too many resources and processes.<br />
I write about elite, top-caste humans controlling and suppressing the masses&#8211;including GMH (genetically modified humans), and some activists attempts to upset the balance.<br />
Climate change? Here&#8217;s an optimistic reframe: What if global warming works to prevent the return of another Ice Age? What if it makes some areas of the earth more fertile? Coconuts in Oregon. The Earth has been covered in ice from pole to pole three times in its life. Once for up to 40 million years. Snowball Earth. Total sterilization of all life but seeds. But mostly it&#8217;s been a tropical world, with no ice even at the poles. How bad can global warming be? I imagine a future society that is thankful for the ancients (us), who warmed up the world and prevented ice two miles thick from moving out from the poles and covering 2/3 of North America, most of Europe, northern areas of Asia, turning India into cool temperate lands&#8230; And similar ice coverage in the Southern Hemisphere. Now that would be a serious sterilization of vast areas of the Earth. Talk about catastrophe!<br />
Maybe we&#8217;re unconsciously terraforming for a warmer, more fertile world. The big issue would be changes in coast lines and the swallowing up of islands, thus relocations and migrations and extinctions of some peoples&#8211;and turf battles. Otherwise humans adapt.<br />
Pollution? Food for new organ adaptions, the first crude attempts of which are our current cancers. Don&#8217;t steal this idea, it&#8217;s been done by Octavia Butler in Xenogenesis. The first organisms were anaerobic, and one of their toxic discharges was oxygen. They poisoned themselves back from some niches, and aerobic organisms used that waste as food to fill the niches. We might do the same with dioxin, BPA, gly-phosphate (Roundup) and all the rest.<br />
Just thinking outside the media box to find some optimism. Who says global warming is a problem? It&#8217;s a hot wind that doesn&#8217;t blow somebody some good.</p>
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		<title>By: Relevant SF&#8230; &#171; Shineanthology&#8217;s Weblog</title>
		<link>http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/comment-page-1/#comment-73870</link>
		<dc:creator>Relevant SF&#8230; &#171; Shineanthology&#8217;s Weblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 00:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/#comment-73870</guid>
		<description>[...] = I fully agree with Paolo Bacigalupi &#8212; see his interview in The Fix and an exchange I had with him on his blog &#8212; and Ian McDonald that SF needs to become relevant again (we [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] = I fully agree with Paolo Bacigalupi &#8212; see his interview in The Fix and an exchange I had with him on his blog &#8212; and Ian McDonald that SF needs to become relevant again (we [...]</p>
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		<title>By: David S.</title>
		<link>http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/comment-page-1/#comment-68108</link>
		<dc:creator>David S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 10:11:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/#comment-68108</guid>
		<description>How to make people think long term? A medical breakthrough that extended the average lifespan to oh say 120-160 yrs might do it (global warming won&#039;t kill your children or grandchildren dude, it&#039;ll kill *you*). 

Of course given our current environmental, population, economic and political problems it would be a rather mixed blessing... but essentially optimistic nonetheless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How to make people think long term? A medical breakthrough that extended the average lifespan to oh say 120-160 yrs might do it (global warming won&#8217;t kill your children or grandchildren dude, it&#8217;ll kill *you*). </p>
<p>Of course given our current environmental, population, economic and political problems it would be a rather mixed blessing&#8230; but essentially optimistic nonetheless.</p>
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		<title>By: Book Calendar</title>
		<link>http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/comment-page-1/#comment-66742</link>
		<dc:creator>Book Calendar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:57:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/#comment-66742</guid>
		<description>I am about half way through your book Pump Six and Other Stories and am really enjoying it.  Writing is about problems, if there isn&#039;t a good problem to solve or face it usually isn&#039;t worth reading.

I can understand an optimistic ending.  We all like living &quot;happily ever after&quot;, but if it is a mainly optimistic thread through the whole story it tends to get on my nerves.

Conflict is what it is all about.  Having a mox of viewpoints optimistic and pessimistic in your characters creates conflict which makes for good stories.

However, I can&#039;t really imagine a very good purely optimistic story about global warming...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am about half way through your book Pump Six and Other Stories and am really enjoying it.  Writing is about problems, if there isn&#8217;t a good problem to solve or face it usually isn&#8217;t worth reading.</p>
<p>I can understand an optimistic ending.  We all like living &#8220;happily ever after&#8221;, but if it is a mainly optimistic thread through the whole story it tends to get on my nerves.</p>
<p>Conflict is what it is all about.  Having a mox of viewpoints optimistic and pessimistic in your characters creates conflict which makes for good stories.</p>
<p>However, I can&#8217;t really imagine a very good purely optimistic story about global warming&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/comment-page-1/#comment-66512</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:39:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/#comment-66512</guid>
		<description>What a great post, and perhaps the catalyst for the type of conversation I never seem to be able to have. This, by the way, is my first foray into the &quot;blog&quot; setting.
I came to your work a few weeks ago by way of the book Wastelands, which only happened to cross my path by connecting to the post-apoc-a-lit that I usually read. This is a completely different realm for me, and it has it&#039;s treasured place in my mind as much as decently done zombiework does.
I can devour both, as I&#039;m a hybrid myself. Local,organic food, mixed with being a gun-nut, tossed with the driving of a Ram pickup, sprinkled with concentric social circles of both self important liberals at the local, non chain coffee shop, and the gir-er-done types at the shooting range. 
So far, of your work, I have enjoyed most Calorie Man, Pasha, and Sand and Slag. Leastly has been Pocketful of Dharma. I am a couple of pages into Pop Squad and am getting mixed feelings about what my take will be.
Perehaps it is because I vastly prefer the wasteland approach to the dystopian one that I find myself at home with neither group of people that I mentioned above. I love the dystopian approach, set in a shit hole, not a mile-high organic structure. 
With that being said, and having just finished Calorie Man a little bit ago, I have decided that that story may be one of my new favorites, and it led me to actually seek out, for the first time, a writer of the actual things I read.
Perhaps I can follow up with a posat about your actual thoughts on the story itself. The GMO situation, and thoughts on any &quot;conspiracies&quot; that may exist with their never ending encroachemnt upon the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a great post, and perhaps the catalyst for the type of conversation I never seem to be able to have. This, by the way, is my first foray into the &#8220;blog&#8221; setting.<br />
I came to your work a few weeks ago by way of the book Wastelands, which only happened to cross my path by connecting to the post-apoc-a-lit that I usually read. This is a completely different realm for me, and it has it&#8217;s treasured place in my mind as much as decently done zombiework does.<br />
I can devour both, as I&#8217;m a hybrid myself. Local,organic food, mixed with being a gun-nut, tossed with the driving of a Ram pickup, sprinkled with concentric social circles of both self important liberals at the local, non chain coffee shop, and the gir-er-done types at the shooting range.<br />
So far, of your work, I have enjoyed most Calorie Man, Pasha, and Sand and Slag. Leastly has been Pocketful of Dharma. I am a couple of pages into Pop Squad and am getting mixed feelings about what my take will be.<br />
Perehaps it is because I vastly prefer the wasteland approach to the dystopian one that I find myself at home with neither group of people that I mentioned above. I love the dystopian approach, set in a shit hole, not a mile-high organic structure.<br />
With that being said, and having just finished Calorie Man a little bit ago, I have decided that that story may be one of my new favorites, and it led me to actually seek out, for the first time, a writer of the actual things I read.<br />
Perhaps I can follow up with a posat about your actual thoughts on the story itself. The GMO situation, and thoughts on any &#8220;conspiracies&#8221; that may exist with their never ending encroachemnt upon the world.</p>
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		<title>By: Tomas Martin</title>
		<link>http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/comment-page-1/#comment-65801</link>
		<dc:creator>Tomas Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:34:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/#comment-65801</guid>
		<description>I think this is a subgenre of stories really worth exploring and a lot of my recent work has been in this kind of idea - I call it &#039;transapocalyptic&#039; because I&#039;m bored of stories where the catastrophe or apocalypse has already happened and the characters look back with wisdom or ignorance on the failed society before them.

I think optimism is part of it but I think the most important function of these stories is that they are set during a slow-burning crisis. So far, much of the work about global warming is either hopelessly pessimistic/we&#039;re going to die, or set so long after that it&#039;s merely backstory, positive or negative outcome.

I like the idea of a story that is both optimistic and realistic - parts of the cities and world are damaged by the changes in climate and resource scarcity, whilst others thrive on the changes. Portraying society during this upheaval is the most interesting part. I just submitted a story in this mould to WOTF much rewritten following Jetse&#039;s excellent comments when I submitted it to Interzone. I&#039;m going to explore this subgenre more but I&#039;d also love to see some more established writers do the same.

More than anything I think it&#039;s important we write these things to give people an idea of what the world in climate change will be like. Science and Al Gore documentaries give people the fear, but they don&#039;t give them any idea what their lives might be like in the GW scenario. SF is excellently placed to do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is a subgenre of stories really worth exploring and a lot of my recent work has been in this kind of idea &#8211; I call it &#8216;transapocalyptic&#8217; because I&#8217;m bored of stories where the catastrophe or apocalypse has already happened and the characters look back with wisdom or ignorance on the failed society before them.</p>
<p>I think optimism is part of it but I think the most important function of these stories is that they are set during a slow-burning crisis. So far, much of the work about global warming is either hopelessly pessimistic/we&#8217;re going to die, or set so long after that it&#8217;s merely backstory, positive or negative outcome.</p>
<p>I like the idea of a story that is both optimistic and realistic &#8211; parts of the cities and world are damaged by the changes in climate and resource scarcity, whilst others thrive on the changes. Portraying society during this upheaval is the most interesting part. I just submitted a story in this mould to WOTF much rewritten following Jetse&#8217;s excellent comments when I submitted it to Interzone. I&#8217;m going to explore this subgenre more but I&#8217;d also love to see some more established writers do the same.</p>
<p>More than anything I think it&#8217;s important we write these things to give people an idea of what the world in climate change will be like. Science and Al Gore documentaries give people the fear, but they don&#8217;t give them any idea what their lives might be like in the GW scenario. SF is excellently placed to do that.</p>
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		<title>By: etbnc</title>
		<link>http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/comment-page-1/#comment-65411</link>
		<dc:creator>etbnc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/#comment-65411</guid>
		<description>Hi,

I&#039;m pleased to find a blog with interactive comments here.  I looked around a couple of years ago after I encountered Paolo&#039;s stories, but didn&#039;t find this.

As a self-professed sustainability advocate, I often feel caught in the middle of a tug o&#039; war between two factions:  people who can&#039;t or won&#039;t imagine the existence of serious problems, and people who can&#039;t or won&#039;t imagine the existence of worthwhile responses.  

One contributing factor I notice is that (in daily life) we&#039;re often rather cavalier about converting our perceptions of probability to statements of certainty.  As in:  This WILL happen.  That WILL NEVER happen.  Both are casual assessments of probability, but we talk about them as absolute certainty.

As a way to maintain my own sense of coherence when I switch between those two distinct audiences, I try to stop myself from making leaps to certainty.  I focus on possibility rather than probability.  Ryan&#039;s comment and Paolo and Jetse&#039;s conversation about change suggests to me three separate, but related, concepts:

Possibility of change
Probability of change
Mechanism of change

Making a probability seem concrete and real is one way to think about SF, it seems to me.  Describing a plausible mechanism goes along with that.  I&#039;d like to think there might be ways to hold up possibilities for examination that might make for interesting prose.  Both of the tug o&#039; war factions I encounter seem to crave certainty, a detailed blueprint for life.  But I doubt that our kids need a blueprint for their lives. (I get the impression many don&#039;t want one.) All I want to do is to offer them an option to live differently, to offer them a plausible possibility to modify the default blueprint our culture provides now.

I guess that&#039;s kind of involved for a just-stopping-by-to-say-thanks comment.  It&#039;s just coincidence that this current blog post invokes some things I think about a lot and deal with often. I appreciate the quality of your prose, Paolo.  I&#039;ll keep reading.  And if you find a way to write some stories about possible worthwhile responses, it&#039;s possible that would lead to another audience to appreciate your prose also.

Thanks again, and cheers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pleased to find a blog with interactive comments here.  I looked around a couple of years ago after I encountered Paolo&#8217;s stories, but didn&#8217;t find this.</p>
<p>As a self-professed sustainability advocate, I often feel caught in the middle of a tug o&#8217; war between two factions:  people who can&#8217;t or won&#8217;t imagine the existence of serious problems, and people who can&#8217;t or won&#8217;t imagine the existence of worthwhile responses.  </p>
<p>One contributing factor I notice is that (in daily life) we&#8217;re often rather cavalier about converting our perceptions of probability to statements of certainty.  As in:  This WILL happen.  That WILL NEVER happen.  Both are casual assessments of probability, but we talk about them as absolute certainty.</p>
<p>As a way to maintain my own sense of coherence when I switch between those two distinct audiences, I try to stop myself from making leaps to certainty.  I focus on possibility rather than probability.  Ryan&#8217;s comment and Paolo and Jetse&#8217;s conversation about change suggests to me three separate, but related, concepts:</p>
<p>Possibility of change<br />
Probability of change<br />
Mechanism of change</p>
<p>Making a probability seem concrete and real is one way to think about SF, it seems to me.  Describing a plausible mechanism goes along with that.  I&#8217;d like to think there might be ways to hold up possibilities for examination that might make for interesting prose.  Both of the tug o&#8217; war factions I encounter seem to crave certainty, a detailed blueprint for life.  But I doubt that our kids need a blueprint for their lives. (I get the impression many don&#8217;t want one.) All I want to do is to offer them an option to live differently, to offer them a plausible possibility to modify the default blueprint our culture provides now.</p>
<p>I guess that&#8217;s kind of involved for a just-stopping-by-to-say-thanks comment.  It&#8217;s just coincidence that this current blog post invokes some things I think about a lot and deal with often. I appreciate the quality of your prose, Paolo.  I&#8217;ll keep reading.  And if you find a way to write some stories about possible worthwhile responses, it&#8217;s possible that would lead to another audience to appreciate your prose also.</p>
<p>Thanks again, and cheers</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/comment-page-1/#comment-65037</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:09:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/#comment-65037</guid>
		<description>Paolo,

Come on man ... optimism has nothing to do with reality.  Seriously.

If you want optimism go watch &quot;It&#039;s a wonderful life&quot; or better yet &quot;Life is Beautiful&quot;.

Optimism is a state of mind.  People for as long as their have been humans have been struggling with, what seems to be, your primary issue here: change.

We don&#039;t have any idea what is going to happen, what horrors we will face, or what horrors our children will face, we only do know that there will be horrors.  What would a good SF story be without them?

You, as a SF writer, have a wonderful opportunity to make believe a different future (fantasy).  Tailor the characters if you care about optimism.  Happiness is always in play no matter what the game.

Have fun,  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paolo,</p>
<p>Come on man &#8230; optimism has nothing to do with reality.  Seriously.</p>
<p>If you want optimism go watch &#8220;It&#8217;s a wonderful life&#8221; or better yet &#8220;Life is Beautiful&#8221;.</p>
<p>Optimism is a state of mind.  People for as long as their have been humans have been struggling with, what seems to be, your primary issue here: change.</p>
<p>We don&#8217;t have any idea what is going to happen, what horrors we will face, or what horrors our children will face, we only do know that there will be horrors.  What would a good SF story be without them?</p>
<p>You, as a SF writer, have a wonderful opportunity to make believe a different future (fantasy).  Tailor the characters if you care about optimism.  Happiness is always in play no matter what the game.</p>
<p>Have fun,  :)</p>
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		<title>By: Journeymouse</title>
		<link>http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/comment-page-1/#comment-63759</link>
		<dc:creator>Journeymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/#comment-63759</guid>
		<description>Paolo,

I think we might stand a better chance with farming them for their fur - the meat would just be a useful by-product to feed to our meat-farmed herbivores and posssibly other polar bears. Of course, following this line of thought, it might be only a matter of time before clubbing becomes fashionable, again.

I&#039;m supposing Jetse&#039;s optimism to be about reclaiming the sense of wonder (of various spellings) that people always go on about when talking about the 40s, 50s and 60s sf, without actually redoing it.

We could always do the Antartica = Atlantis idea to death to comfort ourselves over melting ice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paolo,</p>
<p>I think we might stand a better chance with farming them for their fur &#8211; the meat would just be a useful by-product to feed to our meat-farmed herbivores and posssibly other polar bears. Of course, following this line of thought, it might be only a matter of time before clubbing becomes fashionable, again.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m supposing Jetse&#8217;s optimism to be about reclaiming the sense of wonder (of various spellings) that people always go on about when talking about the 40s, 50s and 60s sf, without actually redoing it.</p>
<p>We could always do the Antartica = Atlantis idea to death to comfort ourselves over melting ice.</p>
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		<title>By: Paolo</title>
		<link>http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/comment-page-1/#comment-63744</link>
		<dc:creator>Paolo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Mar 2008 03:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://windupstories.com/2008/03/10/optimistic-co2-sci-fi/#comment-63744</guid>
		<description>Jetse,

I like that. Write a believable story about successfully mitigating climate change that assumes that people are selfish and short-sighted, and where the mechanics of climate change are such that global warming will cause a gradual destruction of many things we value about the planet, but nonetheless will leave us alive and kicking at the end. 

So climate change will wreck a lot, but it won&#039;t kill us; and yet we still step up to save the polar bears.

That&#039;s a challenge, all right. The only way I can see it happening is if we suddenly discover a taste for Artic polar bear bred at the pole, and so we suddenly have to save the ice caps so we can farm more of them. Then we could get the stock market involved, investing in carbon sequestration as a necessary step in order to cash in on the exploding value of polar bear meat. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jetse,</p>
<p>I like that. Write a believable story about successfully mitigating climate change that assumes that people are selfish and short-sighted, and where the mechanics of climate change are such that global warming will cause a gradual destruction of many things we value about the planet, but nonetheless will leave us alive and kicking at the end. </p>
<p>So climate change will wreck a lot, but it won&#8217;t kill us; and yet we still step up to save the polar bears.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a challenge, all right. The only way I can see it happening is if we suddenly discover a taste for Artic polar bear bred at the pole, and so we suddenly have to save the ice caps so we can farm more of them. Then we could get the stock market involved, investing in carbon sequestration as a necessary step in order to cash in on the exploding value of polar bear meat. :-)</p>
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